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eternity
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PostSubject: argument   Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:43 pm

i was almost have a 1:1 argument with father tim. i still think that Catholics should believe God will only let people who believe in Jesus into heaven. Otherwise there would be absolutely no point in sending Jesus, if he could already bring people he wanted into heaven. I figure that because God is just, he will only let people who believe in Jesus into heaven.

i think father tim was annoyed with me. i wanted to argue more, but i wasn't brave enough. sniff sad
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SweetMadison

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PostSubject: Re: argument   Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:20 pm

haha omgosh that arguement was getting out of hand >.>
Bleh I don't care for R.E that much, I mean I do follow the majority of it but I don't let it control my life....I live it the way I want to
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PostSubject: Subtlety of Teaching?   Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:02 am

I can understand your annoyance, eternity, but I am sure that Fr Tim was in no way annoyed with you - if you were arguing, quite the opposite! It is often difficult to address a complex theological topic in a single lesson, especially when that lesson is meant to engage the whole class. But the point you raise is both valid and current, and thus fascinating....

The historical teaching of the Church is simply this:

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus that is, "Outside the Church there is no salvation". Pretty black and white, huh? Well, not really. The teaching of the Church is clear - if anyone is saved (finds themselves in heaven) then it is through Jesus Christ and him alone. However, because God is merciful and gracious it may be that some people who are not "card carrying Catholics" will be saved. And that is certainly something that Catholics should hope for.

The salvation is non-Catholics is therefore not-excluded, though in some mystical sense even they will be saved through Christ. After all, Christ loves us with a love we cannot even manage to understand. We often make a mistake about the dynamic of belief and salvation - it is God who pursues us, not the other way around!

To put it another way - our faith in the Catholic Church may be great, but our faith in the Redeeming God is greater.

Does that make sense?

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PostSubject: Re: argument   Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:44 pm

whos sacerdos?

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eternity
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PostSubject: Re: argument   Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:23 pm

I understand what you're saying, but the heart of the issue is:

If God could merely save by his grace and will, what is the point of the crucifixion, if not for salvation? If he doesn't need Jesus to save sinners what is the point of the crucifixion? It would follow that Jesus did not come to bring salvation, therefore he is not the promised Messiah of the Jews (Jer 33:15-16).

What else is to concluded than that Jesus' crucifixion was either a sadistic performance or tragic, meaningless murder?

Is it not because God is truth and bound by truth in his nature that the price of sin needed to be paid through Jesus' blood (lev 17:11) to have a lasting effect?

1 pe 3:18: 'For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.'

rom 1:16: 'I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.'
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